RxDM Storycast EP11: Fred Bennett – Digital Health Marketing Thought Leader

Fred Bennett Header Rx Digital Marketing Podcast

In this episode, Buddy talks to digital health scholar and digital multichannel marketer Fred Bennett.

Fred is a senior Marketing and Technology leader who has successfully led digital transformation and technology innovation for world-class healthcare companies, including Allergan, Forest, and Pfizer.

This audio podcast is a follow-up conversation to the Fierce Pharma Marketing Forum conference on March 6-7, 2018 in New York City. The panel “Marketing Off the Beaten Track” included Fred Bennett, Buddy Scalera, and Yan Fossat of Klick Labs. The technology and innovation discussion was moderated by Beth Snyder Bulik of FiercePharmaMarketing.com.

Special thanks and appreciation to Sarah Goldsmith, Senior Production Director at ExL Events.



BUDDY SCALERA:  Hi, and welcome to the Rx Digital Marketing Podcast: The Storyteller Edition.  My name is Buddy Scalera and I’ll be your host today as we talk to a very special guest about digital marketing.  So before we get started I’d like to introduce you to my guest, Fred Bennett, who most recently was the executive director of multi-channel customer marketing at Allergan and now is one of the most sought after consultants in the digital health industry.  Fred, welcome to the show.


Fred:  Thanks Buddy.  Thanks for having me.


BUDDY:  Now Fred, we met at the Fierce Pharma Conference, it was called the Fierce Pharma Marketing Forum and before we get too much into that, could we just talk a little bit about your background?  You have a very interesting and dynamic background.  You were at Allergan for the past three years.  You’ve worked at the Digital Health Coalition.  You’ll have to tell me a little bit about that.  You even worked at the agency side at Digitas and spent a long time at Pfizer as a director and team leader.  Can you just unpack a little bit the background so our audience knows why you’re joining me on the show.


FRED BENNETT: Absolutely.  The thread that connects all of those is my excitement and energy around digital technology  and digital means lots of different things.  It’s the websites and the emails that everyone knows and thinks of, but it’s all the other tools and processes that are enabled now by the internet and some of  those are customer facing and some of those are back-end, but all of them are really transforming the way companies do business both internally and with their customers.  And that’s, that’s what really excites me and energizes me, so as you said at Pfizer I was doing that, wearing a bit more of a technology and internal consulting hat.  I went to the agency side, as you said, working at Digitas Health and had my own company, WebCo consulting for a number of years and then came back to the client side and actually it’s been more than three years.  Time flies.  I had spent just about five years at Allergan leading the, informing the multi-channel customer marketing team, which was really great experience.  I left there just recently and donned my consulting hat again for a while and one of the great things that I had the opportunity to do, as you said, was chat with you at the Fierce Pharma Marketing Conference.  I believe it was their inaugural marketing conference and I think we spoke about a lot of exciting things which I look forward to sharing in the next few minutes with you and your audience.


FRED BENNETT: Absolutely.  The thread that connects all of those is my excitement and energy around digital technology  and digital means lots of different things.  It’s the websites and the emails that everyone knows and thinks of, but it’s all the other tools and processes that are enabled now by the internet and some of  those are customer facing and some of those are back-end, but all of them are really transforming the way companies do business both internally and with their customers.  And that’s, that’s what really excites me and energizes me, so as you said at Pfizer I was doing that, wearing a bit more of a technology and internal consulting hat.  I went to the agency side, as you said, working at Digitas Health and had my own company, WebCo consulting for a number of years and then came back to the client side and actually it’s been more than three years.  Time flies.  I had spent just about five years at Allergan leading the, informing the multi-channel customer marketing team, which was really great experience.  I left there just recently and donned my consulting hat again for a while and one of the great things that I had the opportunity to do, as you said, was chat with you at the Fierce Pharma Marketing Conference.  I believe it was their inaugural marketing conference and I think we spoke about a lot of exciting things which I look forward to sharing in the next few minutes with you and your audience.


BUDDY:  And just to orient, Fred, you are quite active as a speaker and a thought leader.  You’ve spoken at Fiercepharma, the MM&M Show, Digital Health Coalition, Digital Pharma East, you’re really out there beating the drum for digital health.


FRED BENNETT: Yeah I mean not be the mutual admiration society between us but I know you speak a lot of places.  I looked at your list and I don’t know if I could do quite that many but I do like once or twice a year to be able to go out, share my thoughts, and of course it’s a two way street.  As much as I like to share my thoughts and experiences and case studies with folks, I always get back so much more, at least in my opinion, from hearing people’s reactions and other thoughts.  You mentioned the Digital Health Coalition, a little bit about that.  I think technically I am a digital health scholar as part of the Digital Health Coalition.  The Digital Health Coalition is a not for profit 501c3 or whatever the designation is, but it’s a not for profit specifically around this space, to help advance the thinking and there’s a legislative agenda, there’s a studies, white papers that they do in this area and it’s really an interesting group of people who are involved in thinking about not only what are the best practices today but what are some of the emerging things that practitioners should be thinking of going forward.  And they also they have events a couple times a year which I was able to host one last year and again it’s really great opportunity for people to come together so people in the audience who are listeners have not seen that or known that organization, it’d be a great one to look into.


BUDDY:  Yeah, I’ll include links in the show notes but the website address Digital Health Coalition dot org if people want to check that out.  Just before we move on there’s this great clip of you doing the keynote at EXL Pharma where you were talking about future tech and the way AI and future technologies will be figuring into digital health in the future and that was really what we were covering at our panel, so our panel was called “Marketing Off the Beaten Track” and it was moderated by Beth Snyder-Bulik of Fierce Pharma Marketing.  It had you.  It had Yan Fossat from Klick Labs and it had me and we were talking about how digital technology and unexpected digital technology is helping us to bring greater services to our customers whether they be healthcare professionals, patients, or caregivers and you had brought up some very interesting topics around the connected patient and around AI.  Let’s just talk a little bit about some of the things that you’ve been working on, that you think are particularly interesting and relevant to today’s digital marketer.

FRED BENNETT: So yeah there are lots of interesting things that during my time at Allergan as well as in other places that we were looking at.  There were a lot of sort of buzzwords that are out there that people get excited by.  You mentioned AI.  VR, AR.  I did a panel a couple of years ago around big data and I always get a little bit nervous when people throw out some of these terms because people get excited about them but often they’re solutions in search of a problem in which in way degrades from the fact that they are exciting and I think they are going to be channels and technologies that can have a real big impact and it’s fine to say that people are experimenting with that.  We’ve certainly done lots of experiments but I think as we talked about in the panel looking for what is it you’re trying to achieve, you know, what is it that you’re trying to do to reach your customer and reach the patient or the physician or caregiver.  It can be any number of those.  And think about what you’re trying to do and what you’re trying to do to influence them or communicate with them or partner with them and then the technology and the channel that’s the right solution comes to mind and is part of that solution.  An example that came to mind right now and that we talked about during the conference is there was a product that we have for schizophrenia and we’re trying to think about how to really help people understand what it’s like for someone to be suffering with this and there are lots of different ways to do it and but a very simple and very powerful thing that we did was just put headphones on people during a sales meeting and have people do simple math problems and you do a math problem, you know, simple addition yourself and you do it very quickly and very easily but you put headphones and simulate hearing voices in your head and now problems that took people five or ten seconds to do suddenly took them three, four, five times as long to do the same math problems and it helps people understand what it’s like to live with that condition.  It generates empathy.  It generates a discussion among the patients and providers that’s very beneficial.  It was1, it went over really well in our sales meeting.  We wound up bringing that to a conference as well and you know if I step back and said oh this was a great application of augmented reality and threw around some other fancy terms it makes it sound very fancy and complex and like someone, you know, pay lots of money to an agency to create for you but at the end of the day it was very simple.  We knew what we wanted to create, did something that really was next to no cost to put this together but yet very effective and I think that’s a hallmark of to me what’s important in creating a new service or new technology application, which is what’s the need, find the right way to do it.  Don’t lead with a bunch of glitz and fancy applications but go around what’s really going to be effective.


BUDDY:  I think what you said was great, Fred, which was we would see that all the time when I was on the agency side which was we would have solutions in search of a problem.  We would literally have a technology and we would say what can we do with this technology.  That’s not inherently a bad thing but sometimes it leads to forcing technology into a solution where it might not be appropriate.  I mean in that example, you used technology.  It wasn’t exactly cutting edge technology nor did it need to be.  What it did was it bridge a gap and created empathy to create a greater understanding of this health condition and that in and of itself is a great example of how technology can be used and yet you didn’t necessarily need to create a complete 3D world with VR glasses and a 3D printer, right?


FRED BENNETT: All that stuff is fun you know, and we’ve done some things like that and I think all of our – your experience and my experience – but at the end of the day people say what was the impact?  And there are only so many times you can say well it helped us understand and get familiar with the new technology which is great but at the end of the day if you don’t say oh, we moved, we moved revenue, we moved market share or did some of other impact and made some other impact that business leaders would recognize and understand you aren’t going to get a chance to do many more of those sort of experiments.


BUDDY:  Right.  And it is important to experiment with technology and new media and digital channels and yet when we were having that panel, that Fiercepharma panel that Beth Snyder-Bulik was hosting and Yan Fossat from Klick Labs joined us on, we did get to a very important point in the discussion where we said it’s great to experiment with new technologies and it is wonderful that we are able to come in and apply things like Google Glass or different types of apps or AR and VR but it also important to get the foundational work done so that you have this foundation to build upon.  So often we see people experimenting with these technologies and their website is woefully out of date and needs to be updated and is not responsive and doesn’t, isn’t up to the latest standards.  What are your thoughts on the best way to balance innovation but also have the right foundation?


FRED BENNETT: Yeah I think you make a great point which is that as marketers we sometimes think about things in discrete projects but as you’re a customer they, more and more, are expecting a seamless experience.  It’s not even that they’re thinking oh I want a seamless experience.  It’s you just, you go in between screens and in between platforms so seamlessly you are looking at something on Facebook and then you see a TV commercial and then you go to the website and I have seen brands where each one of those three has a separate tech creative, not just execution but different imagery.  They’re all from different campaigns.  One might be one year old.  One might be 6 months old and they keep updating but they haven’t updated all at the same time and you get this great disjointed experience.  Sometimes it’s the imagery.  Sometimes it’s even the copy and the language and it sounds so simple but if you’re social media programs has some compelling stories and compelling content and says click here to get more information, and then when you click to get to the website there’s no pull through and people don’t know where to go to continue that experience from Facebook or Twitter.  It’s just a big missed opportunity because you had someone who’s a hand raiser ready to engage and now you’ve sort of stymied them, so I totally agree with you, the block and tackle is very important.  You need to have foundation in place.  You can track people and help them do what they want to do which is engage with you and your brand.


BUDDY: So Fred you know, I don’t necessarily know how much of the secret sauce you can reveal, but when you’re thinking about this kind of consistent experience across multiple channels how do you control` or influence or guide this when you’re at an enterprise level at a company that might have 40+ brands.  How were you able to guide this kind of governance in your experience?

FRED BENNETT: I’ve, people have worked with me will probably recognize my saying this, I believe in both a carrot and a stick. I think that there’s some companies who have thick decks of standards and SOPs and say this is how it has to be done.  I do  believe there’s a place for that and it helps codify best practices and information on how to do things but I think it’s also when you’re in an organization with multiple brands and they often don’t have incentives to do things the way everyone else is doing them and in the worst case, sometimes they feel that oh that’s the lowest common denominator, that’s just – everyone’s doing that.  I want to, my brand is special, I want to do something different.  There’s also the carrot.  The carrot in many cases is look we have with IT built this back end.  If you follow this approach you can cut your time significantly.  You can cut your cost significantly and get done what you want to do but relying on this common infrastructure or relying on this approach that we’ve already proven with MLR, Medical Legal Regulatory and instead of getting hung up in reviews for three weeks, we have a process to get you done in 1 week.  So those sort of incentives I found very helpful as well.


BUDDY:  That sounds like a very pragmatic approach especially for my end where I’ve also managed the governance of technology and platforms.  Have the brand teams been typically responsive, positively responsive to that or have they been resistant because you know, you and I both know that in large organizations you get these small fiefdoms on people who want to do things their way.  Have you found that the carrot and the stick is an effective way or is it more carrot or is it more stick?


FRED BENNETT: I really find the combination to be effective and, you know, it’s a continuum.  Sometimes you have to swing one way a little bit more, sometimes the other way a little bit more.  You know I think for the most part brands make these little fiefdoms because they want to do the best for their brand and they’re not doing it because they’re trying to be exclusionary, you know, in my experience that’s not the case at least.  They feel that their brand is special and they want to do things and they want to move at the speed the want to move and they want to have control, they want to have the control of it and they’re doing it because they want to do the best job they can for their brand and their product.  So I think as much as you can make these standards fit into that and show them how it’s going to help though at the end of the day, sometimes you have to appeal to being a corporate good citizen and do things because if you have 40 brands all running off in a different direction, you know, we aren’t going to be able to leverage the economies of scale but people get that leveraging those economies means that you’re going to save them time and money which is often important to them.  And at the same token, another aspect is sometimes people, you have marketers and you have agencies who want to be creative.  I think it’s important to help them be creative in the right ways.  You know, you don’t need to be creative in reinventing the footer with the language that has, you know, your copyright information, your legal and privacy policies.  Things like that, if you can create that once across the enterprise perhaps the navigation schemes can be common, back ends that could be common and a lot of people to be creative where it matters, in their messaging, in their imagery, in the campaign elements that are really going to differentiate them in the marketplace I found that when you frame it that way to people, saying we want your creativity, but be creative where it matters not in reinventing the wheel, that often is a very effective approach as well.


BUDDY:  Yeah I have found the exact same thing, Fred, when I was at an organization I asked everybody to start using the same content and editorial templates because what they contained were all of the right fields for social media, for search engine optimization, and it wasn’t just for us to get the same source document which just basically came in Microsoft Word but it was really how I had worked with medical legal regulatory and they knew where to look for the meta description and the meta title, right, like they were trained on it and they approved it so what ended up happening was when a new agency would come in they would want to use their template and we would say no use this one, not for me and or the brand team, but because that’s what the lawyers and the doctors and the other people who need to review had been trained on.  They don’t keep up with the latest trends in certain technology components in the way that we might so we don’t want them to have to hunt around for the meta description.  Something as mundane as you know, what will be the OG tag for the tweet.  Those are the things that, or should be easy to get, you know, locked down at an enterprise level and what I’ve tried to do is say look that’s not where the creativity happens.  Your creativity doesn’t happen in your Google Analytics report to us and it doesn’t happen in your social media report to us and it certainly doesn’t happen in the editorial template.  Make your creativity happen in the places that matter because there’s only so much energy where you can fight us, where you can wrestle for what you want to do.  Use this template and then fight the good fight on things that are important, particularly if you’re trying to be a trailblazer in a new media channel.


FRED BENNETT: I love that Buddy.  You reminded me of a very real world example that was similar in we were creating a CRM platform for this one brand and they had over the last few years done many one off programs.  They had 40+ different databases because they would do one campaign and they’d set up a registration field and collected one way then they’d do a real world live event and they’d set up a registration form to collect the information in a different way and at the end of the day tens of thousands approaching hundreds of thousands of names, people who had opted in but the data hygiene was atrocious because some places they asked for age, some places they asked for date of birth, some people you know they, there were like 30 different fields and was such a nightmare to, and impossible to have someone come in and do the data hygiene to get all these things together into one place where that prompted us to put a standard in place and here are the five basic questions that you ask.  Ask them the same way.  Collect them the same way and every time you do them you then have that information in a standardized format so you can manipulate it, analyze it, act on it much more easily and people rebel, they say oh we need to ask this question a slightly different way.  You say, look, you do that, you’re then going to have this problem two months down the road when this campaign is over then integrating it, you know, ask these five questions.  If you want to add a sixth or seventh then realize people start dropping off when we ask too many questions but standardize on these basics and people push back a little bit but then once we got to it people really saw the benefits which was great.


BUDDY:  Yeah, and we did a similar thing when we were working with one of our vendors and there was an agency partner involved.  What we needed was all of the data to be easily portable into an aggregator. In this particular case it was Power BI and what we were doing was location based marketing and CRM, right.  Just you know, you think about there’s a lot going on there and it doesn’t sound like a lot but when you have a standard for how you’re going to aggregate the data that you collect, when you introduce that new variable of location based it’s much easier because you already have a process and you’ve got a consistent way of both collecting and then sharing and distributing that data and if you’ve ever used Power BI you know that it’s really good at dashboards but it’s only really good at dashboards if you’re using standard data streams.  It doesn’t read your mind and it really doesn’t do a good job of importing from PowerPoint.  You know, you need to really have the right data stream and I think one of the things that I liked about what you were talking about at the Fierce Pharma Marketing Forum was this. this foundational element that helped you then look into future technologies and helps you to say we’ve built the foundation, as you noted, block and tackle now we have this limited amount of energy that we can invest in some sort of future tech so I really thought that that was a pragmatic and smart approach.  Has that been effective for you by looking first at the block and tackle and guiding your teams to express just very discreet projects that explore new technologies?


FRED BENNETT: It has and you know calling it basic blocking and tackling might make it sound mundane and routine but it’s really important because marketing in a sense is the same whether you’re dealing with traditional channels or new channels or channels we haven’t even thought about yet.  It’s about connecting you, your brand, and your customers to help engage with each other and hopefully help influence them to make a purchasing decision.  You know, this discussion, this podcast has sort of gone a little bit into the realm of how do we influence people to, within an organization, to try new things beyond the “blocking and tackling” and one of the things I was thinking about is, as you were talking, was so is this symptom that sometimes we disparagingly call the sort of shiny object syndrome, which is not to be disparaging too much because it actually works really well which is oh, a new technology that we want to introduce to the organization.  What’s the best way to do it, to create some {unclear24:57] , is everyone will now use Instagram or whatever in this way.  I think though that the piloting is really effective way to do it.  Do a small pilot, prove its success, hopefully it is successful though, you know, it certainly, you take on things that are risky and some work and some don’t.  But for the ones that do work, you have a successful pilot, you proved a business case and when some people see something new and exciting and fresh that’s also impactful, which hopefully you’ve done in your pilot and measured its return and its impact, people suddenly want that too and I can’t tell you how many times we’ve piloted something with one or two brands and it’s taken months, six months plus to get the brand up and running, to get it through MLR, and think oh, just scale this to many more brands is going to a long slog but right after the success, suddenly you have one brand, you have two brands, and then in two months we’ve had ten brands who are up and running because they see this success, they see the business case is solid.  You’ve gotten it through the first MLRs so you have a good case study to do through and suddenly your whole organization is up and running on something.  I’ve found that to be a really effective way to sort of that human tendency to follow shiny objects that fuses a way to introduce change management in a positive way.


BUDDY:  BUDDY:  You know what, that’s great.  I love the, I love that you called it a pilot.  It really is one of those things that you have to try and experiment a little bit.  I remember early early on, when I was working in the agency.  We introduced a social media campaign for a brand and it wasn’t even called social at that point.  There wasn’t actually, and we just put a brand on MySpace and right after that it opened the floodgates because then other teams were able to see just how it would like.  It is that first prototype  that always takes a long time.  Matt Balough who is one of the speakers who does one of the podcasts here at Rx Digital Marketing likes to say that it costs ten thousand dollars for the first pill and then a dollar  for each pill after that.    It’s that prototype process and I think you have to be brave in technology.  You have to be unafraid to, you don’t want to fail.  You certainly take as many precautions as possible, but you have to be prepared in technology to have some failure, which is not something that Pharma typically likes, right?  They don’t like to fail but in technology we always have this credo, fail fast and learn from it and move on but that’s tough in pharma because pharma doesn’t like, typically like to fail.  They don’t see failure in the same way that Silicon Valley might see failure.


FRED BENNETT: You know once I find myself in violent agreement with you.  I feel like…


BUDDY:  <laughs>  Good!


FRED BENNETT: You mentioned our conference recently and today’s talk.  Depending on your organization I found that analogy that you just used to often be a powerful one.  We as a pharmaceutical industry or biotech industry actually are not afraid to fail in some cases.  You think about what it takes to bring a molecule to market if you’re dealing with, you know, a small molecules or biosimilars or whatever.  You know, you look at the R&D pipeline and the funnel and you try thousands and thousands of compounds to get to a much smaller number which make it into in vitro studies, which is a smaller number make it to phase one, phase two, phase three.  We have, as an industry, a lot of experience with failure and managing it to find one’s that succeed, compounds that can succeed and I think that if you frame things like that to leaders, senior leaders, it resonates with them sometimes in a way that’s different than just saying oh here’s a new technology we want to try.  It helps them understand that we are about taking risks and we are about, you know, finding the ones that work.  I would also say that as you are doing things, piloting is not just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks, well, actually that’s one approach to piloting.  A different approach is saying, you know, let’s build this pilot with the idea of scale in mind from the beginning and not let a success keep you flat footed or catch you flat footed and be able to say ok if this works, here’s how we’ve already thought through easing the way with the reviewers.  Here’s how we’ve already thought easing the way for IT to help us scale this and thinking that that from the beginning, one, can influence how you do the pilot because there are many different ways to do it, and two, hopefully when it does succeed, it speeds to market future brands who want to be using it as well.


BUDDY:  Yeah and I think, once again fully agreement with you.  And I think going back to something that you had said at the conference was thinking holistically about all of your channels because when you think as a multi-channel leader you think about all the channels because that user might not differentiate that there’s a different team for Instagram than there is for web, than there is for mobile or anything else.  You have to think holistically about the entire footprint all at once and then how this new variable will impact the multi-channel approach.


FRED BENNETT: I had a boss once who said when you as a consumer can tell from the silos that are put up in front of you that there were different teams internal to the organization that are working on different pieces and if that’s how you know it’s not a truly holistic omnichannel or multi-channel, whatever terms you want to use organization where you’re on the website and you want to just talk to someone and you have to start from scratch because they don’t have a way to transfer your data from the website to the call center or other things like that.  You know that’s an organization who’s putting up barriers to a good customer experience.


BUDDY: So Fred, as we’re coming toward the conclusion I want to do a speed round with you.


Fred:  Always love speed rounds.


BUDDY:  Speed round is a lot of fun.  You know you’ve touched a lot of different technologies in your role as a multi-channel marketer.  Quick thoughts on each of these technologies and what they mean in digital health.  So, television?


FRED BENNETT: Seems old school as compared to some of the things we’re talking about but in terms of reaching a mass audience it’s still, there’s no better way to do it.


BUDDY:  Social Media?


FRED BENNETT: Emerging for pharma.  I mean we can look at other industries who have integrated social media campaigns a lot more.  In my last role I’ve been fortunate to do a lot of programs with a lot of social media.  I think there’s a lot there.  I think pharma needs to be comfortable with enabling conversations and not just pushing, pushing content.  I think that will be both the challenge and the opportunity with social media for pharma.




FRED BENNETT: I think great, so I, CRM, people want to disparage it say oh it’s just a fancy email program.  I think the opportunities with CRM around loyalty, loyalty programs, you look at what the hospitality industry or some financial services do with their loyalty programs, or CRM programs and I think it can be quite compelling.  I’ve seen pretty simple straightforward programs that can give double digits returns, or double digit increases I should say, in terms of the revenue in lifetime value.  I think it can be quite compelling when done smart.


BUDDY:  And finally the beast in the room, AR/VR?


FRED BENNETT: I don’t know why they’re the beasts in the room other than , you know, you think about VR and the VR headsets and it’s a lot of people thinking and trying various things.  As I mentioned earlier in this podcast about AR, it can be simple and straightforward.  But certainly with smartphones and other things you can do very fancy, very exciting things and we’ve been looking at a lot of them.  I think there’s the opportunity.  I don’t know yet what the use case then is going to be that successful five years down the road.  I wish I could put on a VR headset myself and look into the future that way, but I just don’t know.  I eagerly anticipate looking at what more creative people than myself are going to be doing in that space so I can learn from them.  Maybe that wasn’t a speed answer but that’s my thoughts.


BUDDY:  Well it was a good, it was a really good answer, Fred.  Fred, thank you so much for your time. Knowing now that you’re a consultant.  I know that you’re also a speaker.  Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?


FRED BENNETT: Probably the best way is through LinkedIn.  And as you said I do have some videos up there of some other speaking engagements, so rather than rattle it off maybe Buddy if I could ask you in the notes you could a link to my LinkedIn profile and people can find me that way.


BUDDY:  Fred you’ve been a great guest and I truly appreciate the time that you’ve given me and my audience.


FRED BENNETT: Well Buddy you’ve been a great host and I thank you for the time of you and your audience for listening to this because it’s been a lot of fun for me chatting.


BUDDY:  Fred, thank you so much and I will look forward to seeing you at the EXL Pharma event.


FRED BENNETT: I look forward to it as well.  Thank you again.  




Fred Bennett on LinkedIn

Digital Health Coalition: Digital Health Scholars 


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